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H2 Sport Spindle thread

bostonaudi

bostonaudi

Go Kart Champion
Location
Charleston, SC
Car(s)
1995 BMW M3
Thought I'd create a new thread on this part now that they're out there (sorta - have heard there are delays again). Anyone else who gets a pair feel free to add comments (or just add them anyway).

Have done a track event at Road Atlanta since installing, and nearly 2 months of street driving.

I will post a pic soon of what the angle of the arms looks like with respect ground.

I've run the car more aggressively lowered (over full inch down), and with less height (at 1/2" down). These measurements are done with fender to wheel center, not fender to ground which is a bit meaningless. My car is an 08 and started life in the Fatherland with 14.5" fender to center front, 14" fender to center rear as measured on my flat garage floor with trusty Craftsman tape measure.

I ran Road Atlanta with front at 13.5", rear 13.25", car felt excellent and really had amazing grip with 350 lb front, 300 rear springs, APR sways with front and rear middle. Car had excellent grip, shocks set stiff rear, middle stiff front, no real issues with bump compliance.

However at that ride height on the street the car can be bouncy on bad roads. Here in Charleston, SC our highways have many areas of wavy cement that causes car to bounce (our roads suck in general - worst roads in southeast by far). I raised height back up to 1/2" down (14" front, 13.5" rear) and now shocks aren't bouncing into their stops, car is firm not bouncy at all. One thing I also notice is front starts feeling a bit light at higher ride height.

So point of long story is, the spindles alone don't automatically engineer a car that will work at low heights. You will still have issues with shock bounce, tires rubbing, axle banging, subframe scraping etc. etc. My advice is still to keep lowering moderate even with the spindles to have the car work properly in most respects. At about 1/2 to full inch down seems the sweet spot and the spindles work their magic just fine without going lowering crazy.

Another option to keep shocks working at lower height without getting into the stops is stiffer springs, or hacking the stops down a bit (not an option for me). I think to run at more aggressive lower height a bump to 400 or 450 front and 350 rear will work better. I do need to do some work to see how far the shocks are actually compressing to verify.

Shot at RA working turn 10a, just after decelerating from 135 and double heel and toe to 3rd. The car handled these corners so much better with front correction, still a fair amount of lean from the pic, but when driving you don't have the sensation the car is leaning much at all with the spindles:

 
bostonaudi

bostonaudi

Go Kart Champion
Location
Charleston, SC
Car(s)
1995 BMW M3
Angle of front control arms with respect to ground, front at 13.75" fender to wheel center, plenty of room left to keep em level:

 
M

miamirice

Ready to race!
Location
Miami
bostonaudi said:
Thought I'd create a new thread on this part now that they're out there (sorta - have heard there are delays again). Anyone else who gets a pair feel free to add comments (or just add them anyway).

Have done a track event at Road Atlanta since installing, and nearly 2 months of street driving.

I will post a pic soon of what the angle of the arms looks like with respect ground.

I've run the car more aggressively lowered (over full inch down), and with less height (at 1/2" down). These measurements are done with fender to wheel center, not fender to ground which is a bit meaningless. My car is an 08 and started life in the Fatherland with 14.5" fender to center front, 14" fender to center rear as measured on my flat garage floor with trusty Craftsman tape measure.

I ran Road Atlanta with front at 13.5", rear 13.25", car felt excellent and really had amazing grip with 350 lb front, 300 rear springs, APR sways with front and rear middle. Car had excellent grip, shocks set stiff rear, middle stiff front, no real issues with bump compliance.

However at that ride height on the street the car can be bouncy on bad roads. Here in Charleston, SC our highways have many areas of wavy cement that causes car to bounce (our roads suck in general - worst roads in southeast by far). I raised height back up to 1/2" down (14" front, 13.5" rear) and now shocks aren't bouncing into their stops, car is firm not bouncy at all. One thing I also notice is front starts feeling a bit light at higher ride height.

So point of long story is, the spindles alone don't automatically engineer a car that will work at low heights. You will still have issues with shock bounce, tires rubbing, axle banging, subframe scraping etc. etc. My advice is still to keep lowering moderate even with the spindles to have the car work properly in most respects. At about 1/2 to full inch down seems the sweet spot and the spindles work their magic just fine without going lowering crazy.

Another option to keep shocks working at lower height without getting into the stops is stiffer springs, or hacking the stops down a bit (not an option for me). I think to run at more aggressive lower height a bump to 400 or 450 front and 350 rear will work better. I do need to do some work to see how far the shocks are actually compressing to verify.

Shot at RA working turn 10a, just after decelerating from 135 and double heel and toe to 3rd. The car handled these corners so much better with front correction, still a fair amount of lean from the pic, but when driving you don't have the sensation the car is leaning much at all with the spindles:

Click to expand...



That sounds like spring rates would still be very soft for a 3000 lbs car. Even if it's a daily. Your car is pitching pretty hard in the picture ( I know the turn your on ).

I would be tempted to try around 700lbs. If you have dampers you can adjust just set to full soft on the street. It won't be that bad. :23:
 
bostonaudi

bostonaudi

Go Kart Champion
Location
Charleston, SC
Car(s)
1995 BMW M3
It is rolling a bit, but with the spindles the front just holds on. I do have a set of 450's on the shelf staring at me...
 
ViRtUaLheretic

ViRtUaLheretic

╭∩╮（︶__︶&#6
Location
KC MO
Car(s)
2009 VW GTI
bostonaudi said:
Angle of front control arms with respect to ground, front at 13.75" fender to wheel center, plenty of room left to keep em level:

Click to expand...


Was just under my car over the weekend and I couldnt help but look at my LCAs and notice ths retarted angle they are on.
Once I get situated after my move and new job this will be at the top of my mod list!
 
bostonaudi

bostonaudi

Go Kart Champion
Location
Charleston, SC
Car(s)
1995 BMW M3
Even at stock ride height arms are barely level, as soon as you lower they go below level and start compromising camber curve. You get instant 2" drop with H2Sport. I'd also look into the TT spindles again, if APR ever says how they fitted them it would be better to go with alloy and get a few lb weight drop.

I have to admit though I can understand why VW so conservative, the average Joe would easily put my car into a divider or crash it in an accident avoidance maneuver, the car has no understeer, you point it, it goes.
 
Perpetuus

Perpetuus

Data Encryption
Location
In my garage
boston, have you ever ran softer swaybars with this setup? I am curious if the extra body roll (and adverse camber) but higher mechanical grip will make the car faster through the corners than better camber but more loaded outside front tire with your APR bars.

I am beginning to dislike how heavily loaded my outside tires get with my H&R 26mm/22mm setup. My LSD feels like it's doing nil in the corners right now. If I get the H2 spindles and leave everything else alone, would that increase front end grip (since the car will want to lean less and the swaybars will be doing less)?
 
bostonaudi

bostonaudi

Go Kart Champion
Location
Charleston, SC
Car(s)
1995 BMW M3
Perpetuus said:
boston, have you ever ran softer swaybars with this setup? I am curious if the extra body roll (and adverse camber) but higher mechanical grip will make the car faster through the corners than better camber but more loaded outside front tire with your APR bars.

I am beginning to dislike how heavily loaded my outside tires get with my H&R 26mm/22mm setup. My LSD feels like it's doing nil in the corners right now. If I get the H2 spindles and leave everything else alone, would that increase front end grip (since the car will want to lean less and the swaybars will be doing less)?
Click to expand...

Sounds like you are madly spinning in corners. If that 26mm front bar is solid it might be a little much, have you tried adjusting all the way soft? You can also experiment with disconnecting it totally, won't hurt anything. What is your front camber setting at?

I like how my car performs with both the 27mm Hotchkis front and rear bars set in the middle, at those settings the car is balanced. The front feels great with it relatively stiff in the middle and I like the way it responds.

I'm a little surprised you are running with Koni FSD's given all your other mods, suggest a shock change to Yellows so you can tweak damping for under/over steer, otherwise its difficult to dial the car in.

In the pic my car looks like its leaning a bit but the car has fantastic grip. Sure I can make it super stiff but it really isn't necessary, I have no doubt it would go even faster but I can give up a bit of speed to keep it fairly civilized. The whole idea around stiff springs is to keep the car from leaning and losing grip. However with the excellent camber curve grip really isn't lost even with some lean so running super high rate springs not so necessary. If you install the spindles you will instantly see what I mean.

Have you guys seen the rates of the VWR springs that APR is selling here now? They are softer than DG springs.
 
M

miamirice

Ready to race!
Location
Miami
Perpetuus said:
boston, have you ever ran softer swaybars with this setup? I am curious if the extra body roll (and adverse camber) but higher mechanical grip will make the car faster through the corners than better camber but more loaded outside front tire with your APR bars.

I am beginning to dislike how heavily loaded my outside tires get with my H&R 26mm/22mm setup. My LSD feels like it's doing nil in the corners right now. If I get the H2 spindles and leave everything else alone, would that increase front end grip (since the car will want to lean less and the swaybars will be doing less)?
Click to expand...

You can soften the front bar, you can stiffen the rear.

"Why does that work?" We have already established that when your car goes around a corner a certain amount of weight is transferred from one side to the other. And we know that that TOTAL lateral weight transfer is independent of the spring rates (and suspension type). What the different spring rates do is change where the majority of that load/weight transfer is happening. If you raise the rear spring rate then a higher percentage of the rear's weight will be transferred between the 2 rear tires (until you lift a tire, then the maximum amount of weight is being transferred). This decreases rear traction slightly and takes strain off the outside front. The strain coming off the outside rear lets the inside front do more work, thus increasing traction up there on there steering end of the car. Increasing the traction up there helps with turning AND it helps put more load on the inside tire so you get more accelerative traction and can put more power down without the use of an LSD.

I don't know what your goal is with the car. If you desire to try to run competively with cars that are in your class in NASA Time trials I think your MINIMUM spring rate on a car over 3000 lbs is 600ish IMO. I would think if all the weight was on the outside your LSD would be working its ass off.

If its a daily and you are just occasionally out having fun and not recording lap times just play with the bars.
 
Perpetuus

Perpetuus

Data Encryption
Location
In my garage
The front swaybar is already set to soft and the rear set to hard, so can't get any more grip from this set. The 26mm front bar is solid indeed, but in torsion, it is comparable to a 27mm tubular bar, so that makes me wonder about that extra grip that you are getting. Is it mostly from the higher static camber you are running, or from the H2 spindles? I don't have any additional camber than what my WALK gives me in cornering (~ -0.5 degrees, I believe).

Actually, I think my Koni FSDs are shot as the car recovers from rebound more slowly than before at highway speeds, so it might be worthwhile to upgrade. Won't be happy with anything other than KWs or Ohlins DFV, but the money isn't ready:frown:

My car is back at the shop while they diagnose for some clunking noise after their LSD install. (most likely subframe). I've been driving their loaner Mk6 Jetta, and realized how much more mechanical grip it has than my GTI, despite being on the stock spring rates and having relatively high body roll with adverse camber. In a sense, it makes me want to ditch those big swaybars and go back to stock bars.



bostonaudi said:
Sounds like you are madly spinning in corners. If that 26mm front bar is solid it might be a little much, have you tried adjusting all the way soft? You can also experiment with disconnecting it totally, won't hurt anything. What is your front camber setting at?

I like how my car performs with both the 27mm Hotchkis front and rear bars set in the middle, at those settings the car is balanced. The front feels great with it relatively stiff in the middle and I like the way it responds.

I'm a little surprised you are running with Koni FSD's given all your other mods, suggest a shock change to Yellows so you can tweak damping for under/over steer, otherwise its difficult to dial the car in.

In the pic my car looks like its leaning a bit but the car has fantastic grip. Sure I can make it super stiff but it really isn't necessary, I have no doubt it would go even faster but I can give up a bit of speed to keep it fairly civilized. The whole idea around stiff springs is to keep the car from leaning and losing grip. However with the excellent camber curve grip really isn't lost even with some lean so running super high rate springs not so necessary. If you install the spindles you will instantly see what I mean.

Have you guys seen the rates of the VWR springs that APR is selling here now? They are softer than DG springs.
Click to expand...


The car is currently a daily driver but it doesn't accumulate alot of mileage (~ something like 8000 km in 6 months) because I spend alot of my time in other cars. However, I do have plans to track the car later.

I wouldn't mind stiffer springs if I could go with a softer swaybar setup, but I do believe in a compliant ride to aid with the tires' road-following abilities. I know that H2's philosophy is to improve the end of the car that has less grip, rather than "handicapping" the end with more grip with a bigger swaybar to balance the vehicle, and I know that they build some very fast cars.


miamirice said:
I don't know what your goal is with the car. If you desire to try to run competively with cars that are in your class in NASA Time trials I think your MINIMUM spring rate on a car over 3000 lbs is 600ish IMO. I would think if all the weight was on the outside your LSD would be working its ass off.

If its a daily and you are just occasionally out having fun and not recording lap times just play with the bars.
Click to expand...
 
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bostonaudi

bostonaudi

Go Kart Champion
Location
Charleston, SC
Car(s)
1995 BMW M3
Perpetuus said:
The front swaybar is already set to soft and the rear set to hard, so can't get any more grip from this set. The 26mm front bar is solid indeed, but in torsion, it is comparable to a 27mm tubular bar, so that makes me wonder about that extra grip that you are getting. Is it mostly from the higher static camber you are running, or from the H2 spindles? I don't have any additional camber than what my WALK gives me in cornering (~ -0.5 degrees, I believe).

Actually, I think my Koni FSDs are shot as the car recovers from rebound more slowly than before at highway speeds, so it might be worthwhile to upgrade. Won't be happy with anything other than KWs or Ohlins DFV, but the money isn't ready:frown:

My car is back at the shop while they diagnose for some clunking noise after their LSD install. (most likely subframe). I've been driving their loaner Mk6 Jetta, and realized how much more mechanical grip it has than my GTI, despite being on the stock spring rates and having relatively high body roll with adverse camber. In a sense, it makes me want to ditch those big swaybars and go back to stock bars.






The car is currently a daily driver but it doesn't accumulate alot of mileage (~ something like 8000 km in 6 months) because I spend alot of my time in other cars. However, I do have plans to track the car later.

I wouldn't mind stiffer springs if I could go with a softer swaybar setup, but I do believe in a compliant ride to aid with the tires' road-following abilities. I know that H2's philosophy is to improve the end of the car that has less grip, rather than "handicapping" the end with more grip with a bigger swaybar to balance the vehicle, and I know that they build some very fast cars.
Click to expand...

With better damping the DG springs will work fine, leave em on. Heck you could even pair them with a set of Ohlins.

I find it to be a handicap not having adjustable damping. With yellows you can crank the rears up, set fronts to a turn (or less), car should handle great. Bilsteins are excellent but you have a firm shock all the time. I have no real complaints on street ride with those though but they've made my wife carsick on more than one occasion!

I'd try to get car more or less dialed in with the current setup before going for spindles. You don't need spindles to get the car to handle well, but they will remove that last bit of under steer when you do.
 
ViRtUaLheretic

ViRtUaLheretic

╭∩╮（︶__︶&#6
Location
KC MO
Car(s)
2009 VW GTI
Perpetuus said:
I don't have any additional camber than what my WALK gives me in cornering (~ -0.5 degrees, I believe).
Click to expand...

WALK adds 0.5 degrees of caster, not camber
 
bostonaudi

bostonaudi

Go Kart Champion
Location
Charleston, SC
Car(s)
1995 BMW M3
With the mild lowering of the Eibach springs you probably have about -1.0 camber right now.

The stock camber doesn't go far, if you want more grip you absolutely need more front camber. Camber plates are a bit of a compromise on the daily ride, but if you don't have to drive it everyday I'd go for em, the GC plates look excellent, and H2Sports new ones should be good. If a daily the TT arms are way to go, but more $.

With the front sway bar set soft, I ran -2.7 camber with excellent grip. If you like the feel of the front bar being stiffer, around -2.0 to -2.2 works well. Note that tires will wear faster with higher camber for obvious reasons, not so much on the street but at the track higher camber can carve them up quickly. If you go much higher than -2.7 or so you'll also start having issues with traction on braking and accelerating so its all a bit of a juggling act.

If you get the spindles the need for higher static camber goes down, -2.0 to -2.2 all you need, and tires don't wear badly at all at that setting.

To keep budget under control, you could have an excellent setup with Koni yellows and just keep using the DG springs, would be a great setup and very streetable. Until you spend money on something costing $2k or more you aren't going to beat it.
 
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