V
Review: KW V3 coilover ... GTI
- Thread starter WhiteJames
- Start date
WhiteJames
Fun Nazi
- Location
- Sydney
- Car(s)
- VW Golf GTI MKV
Paul Muller has told me that he set the right front ride height 2mm higher than the left front to compensate for the added weight of the driver. I'll wait for a little while before I start measuring heights & threads. Not sure on the rear with the LR to RR height variation.
I believe Paul Muller said it was the HPA SC kit for 25K. A regular customer of his owns the vehicle and goes to the Muller & Muller - Colin Bond track days at Wakefield Park.
The KW V3 -v- Bilstein PSS10 debate come up not once, but twice with Paul Muller on the day of installation. Paul Muller swears by the PSS10 for road & track use. He loves the Bilstein (but not H&R). On the other hand David Falson of East Coast Suspension raves about quality of KW and their greater variety of kits (V1 - V3 - Clubsport - Race Kit).
I went with KW V3 for following reasons by not in this order:
Price - Quality (Inox chrome tubes) - Proven Performance - R&D (Nurburgring where they hold fastest car awards 2006-2008) - KW is a smaller specialist company with 120 staff that specialise in coilovers - No issues with NVH including spring bind & tug'n'release - Versatility of separate rebound/low speed compression making them like a Koni FSD coilover - Advice from ECS - My own review data with forum members.
Only negative is that KW V3 are more difficult to adjust. I don't plan to track my car any time soon; so once optimal adjustments & height is found, further adjustments will not be necessary.
Bilstein PSS10 were high on my list for:
Inverted strut design at front for extra strength - Ease of adjustment - Proven reputation - Valving creating greater feel, directness & feedback on roadway.
Paul Muller will do PSS10 for around $3600 fitted.
I indicated to Paul about complaints of noise on the PSS9/PSS10/H&R kits. Paul Muller states that Bilstein have changed springs on PSS10 similar to what KW are running. I guess that makes KW a leader in the field. Muller stated to me just by looking at the KW springs in my revised V3 kit that there will be no issues with noise. So far so good.
So if PSS10 are your cup of tea; make sure you clarify if the springs are similar to the KW to limit the spring bind/tug'n'release issues. These are 50-60K vehicles and deserve the best in NVH.
In addition, I'd steer clear of sway bars with polyurethene bushes due to squeaking & constant requirement for oil that does not stay in the bushes. Rear sway bar only is another misconception. You need a good matched pair of sway bars for a balanced vehicle.
Paul Muller and I differ on issues of ripple stripps on the race track. The PSS10 wound up hard will bounce off the ripple strip. The KW V3 will absorb the shock as the high speed compression is not adjustable; preset from the factory - low speed compression set to hard on KW V3 would still give plenty of firmness for track. Just need to bring mechanic with you to track (most organise track days anyway like Muller and ECS).
In all honesty, if I was half serious for track work - probably KW Club Sport Kit with linear springs may be best for track. PSS10 have progressive rate springs, so I don't think they'd be super idea for track work.
Mario R32: Best to see if you can get a ride in the various kits before committing to anything.
Cheers
WJ
I believe Paul Muller said it was the HPA SC kit for 25K. A regular customer of his owns the vehicle and goes to the Muller & Muller - Colin Bond track days at Wakefield Park.
The KW V3 -v- Bilstein PSS10 debate come up not once, but twice with Paul Muller on the day of installation. Paul Muller swears by the PSS10 for road & track use. He loves the Bilstein (but not H&R). On the other hand David Falson of East Coast Suspension raves about quality of KW and their greater variety of kits (V1 - V3 - Clubsport - Race Kit).
I went with KW V3 for following reasons by not in this order:
Price - Quality (Inox chrome tubes) - Proven Performance - R&D (Nurburgring where they hold fastest car awards 2006-2008) - KW is a smaller specialist company with 120 staff that specialise in coilovers - No issues with NVH including spring bind & tug'n'release - Versatility of separate rebound/low speed compression making them like a Koni FSD coilover - Advice from ECS - My own review data with forum members.
Only negative is that KW V3 are more difficult to adjust. I don't plan to track my car any time soon; so once optimal adjustments & height is found, further adjustments will not be necessary.
Bilstein PSS10 were high on my list for:
Inverted strut design at front for extra strength - Ease of adjustment - Proven reputation - Valving creating greater feel, directness & feedback on roadway.
Paul Muller will do PSS10 for around $3600 fitted.
I indicated to Paul about complaints of noise on the PSS9/PSS10/H&R kits. Paul Muller states that Bilstein have changed springs on PSS10 similar to what KW are running. I guess that makes KW a leader in the field. Muller stated to me just by looking at the KW springs in my revised V3 kit that there will be no issues with noise. So far so good.
So if PSS10 are your cup of tea; make sure you clarify if the springs are similar to the KW to limit the spring bind/tug'n'release issues. These are 50-60K vehicles and deserve the best in NVH.
In addition, I'd steer clear of sway bars with polyurethene bushes due to squeaking & constant requirement for oil that does not stay in the bushes. Rear sway bar only is another misconception. You need a good matched pair of sway bars for a balanced vehicle.
Paul Muller and I differ on issues of ripple stripps on the race track. The PSS10 wound up hard will bounce off the ripple strip. The KW V3 will absorb the shock as the high speed compression is not adjustable; preset from the factory - low speed compression set to hard on KW V3 would still give plenty of firmness for track. Just need to bring mechanic with you to track (most organise track days anyway like Muller and ECS).
In all honesty, if I was half serious for track work - probably KW Club Sport Kit with linear springs may be best for track. PSS10 have progressive rate springs, so I don't think they'd be super idea for track work.
Mario R32: Best to see if you can get a ride in the various kits before committing to anything.
Cheers
WJ
amrjon
Ready to race!
- Location
- Behind the wheel
I'm surpised, with your passion for vehicle handling you should think about giving it a go and giving yourself and your suspension they kind of testing you could never experieice on the road.
Lima
Vorsprung durch technik
- Location
- Canberra, Australia
Nice write up James.
You need a new camera. :w00t:
You need a new camera. :w00t:
I would like to know this as well. $25k is still a rip off though. should be about 15k.
You should give us insurance for the day mate! :thumbsup:, unless it's not your primary car and youre not worried about potentially losing 50k-80k. Not saying that it's common but is still a risk.
Are you kidding? Someone in Brisbane has V3's on their R with tire tuck at the back, so they go very low. I still don't belive the ride is comfy when the ride height is dumped.. felt pretty hard when i drove it (over bad roads).
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Nice write-up James- informative as always. Now that I'm back in Sydney, there should be more ops to see your ride. I thought you swore by your FSD/Eibach setup! hehehe These seem to be much better from an aesthetic and ride/handling point of view, but you get what you pay for 
Now, change your signature...hehe
Now, change your signature...hehe
GTI RR
Du Riechst So Gut!
- Location
- Erskineville, Sydney
- Car(s)
- 2006 Golf GTI
They look awesome! I was considering a set of these for my GTI, but was turned off by the quote I got ($4g's!!!:thumbdown. But if I can get them for something around that price I would be a happy man. Nice review BTW!
James
. But if I can get them for something around that price I would be a happy man. Nice review BTW!James
amrjon
Ready to race!
- Location
- Behind the wheel
Plenty of risks in life, I'd rate this one pretty low. I'm talking about controlled training days not racing. In real terms the risk of damage is proably less that fanging around the streets or even the daily commute. At Wakefield park there isn't even anything to hit ! Anyway I appreciate that that's everyones call to make for themselvs, just thought if I was spending that much time and $ on suspension perfection I'd want to give it a go.
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I agree and have actually done a SDT course on the skid pan which was worthwhile to get to know how the car handles in the wet when pushed.
Perhaps i meant to say wouldn't want to race with my car, but fun days and low risk days are fine. At QR there really isn't anything much to hit either, and you'd have to run out of talent to crash in an AWD car as well.
It is a bit over the top having race-type mods and not being able to use them on the streets. I would probably get the KV V3 next time as well but like Jig am mostly happy with them. They just felt a bit too soft and not ideal for the track, but dont want all the rattles and a worn out clutch anyway at this stage.
Perhaps i meant to say wouldn't want to race with my car, but fun days and low risk days are fine. At QR there really isn't anything much to hit either, and you'd have to run out of talent to crash in an AWD car as well.
It is a bit over the top having race-type mods and not being able to use them on the streets. I would probably get the KV V3 next time as well but like Jig am mostly happy with them. They just felt a bit too soft and not ideal for the track, but dont want all the rattles and a worn out clutch anyway at this stage.
amrjon
Ready to race!
- Location
- Behind the wheel
Plus (and I know this is being a bit greedy when James already gives us so much great info) how good would it be to have lap times to complement and put into context the great reviews?
bazzle
Go Kart Champion
- Location
- Melbourne, Australia
- Car(s)
- MY08 R32 Silver 3dr
Good article.. well done.
Concerning chassis height diff,, Have you tried checking corner weights to see if its caused by an opp front corner? with and without driver?
A couple off mm may see error reduced by half again.
Bazzle
Concerning chassis height diff,, Have you tried checking corner weights to see if its caused by an opp front corner? with and without driver?
A couple off mm may see error reduced by half again.
Bazzle
FattyBoomba
Live life in the R Lane!
- Location
- Sydney - Australia
- Car(s)
- Golf R32 Mark V
Great Review James,
I luuvv me KW V3's .. :wub:
Cheers Fatty
I luuvv me KW V3's .. :wub:
Cheers Fatty
WhiteJames
Fun Nazi
- Location
- Sydney
- Car(s)
- VW Golf GTI MKV
Putting a few more kms on the KW V3 coilover kit with the small solid adjustable H&R anti-roll bars, I'm liking them better and better. Ride in town is firm with great telemetry & feeling of what is happening with the tyre & roadway. My usual speed bump tests had the previous package taking some time to regain composure with some bounciness due to the slighlty softer initial aspect of the progressive rate spring and the softer Koni FSD damper. KW V3 on set on half & heavier Huff wheels, the GTI is far more composed over the speed bumps - It's just up and down with no dramatics ... so taunt and cohensive with less NVH. Heading out bush for short periods at a time confirms that initial turn in is slighlty reduced due to loss of rake. When leaning on the KW V3 mid corner, the H&R sway bars compliment the coilover fantastically by offering some yaw slip to shift the rear end around point the GTI towards the exit of the corner with a tight exit line and creating @ neutral chassis dynamic. The H&R bars are a better match for the new coilover kit, for sure. The ride height issue after a few more checks seems to have sorted itself out for now; the kit needs a bit more time to settle in but rear to rear appears even. Paul Muller and I think that the difference in the rear chassis height is either the weld of the body to floorpan or machining of the rear multi-link subframe ... hard to say which. Probably not due to corner weighting.
On the second short drive, MarioR32 dropped by to sample the KW V3 for himself to aid his decision regarding the PSS10 -v- KW V3 conundrum. In turn I got to have a few blasts in his sexy UG R32 with rear neuspeed sway bar & Gruppe M intake. After an argument regarding the need or no-need for CAI, ECU and exhaust on the R32 (I'm saying no need - save ur money), we drove the GTI and R32 back to back on a tidy section roadway with heaps of gradients and short sharp turns, and a nasty looking low level convoluted bridge. Mario noted that the GTI doesn't move. It doesn't pitch fore or aft, doesn't roll ... just sits flat and stable. Yet the ride is very good; suprisingly good for such a firm & tight suspension package. No noise apart from the leather rear seat squeaking. Overall Mario appeared very impressed with the V3 kit & H&R bars. He also loved the overall look of the GTI, especially the 18" Huff wheels with grey shadow interior that masks the brake dust ... they really do set the car apart without being ostentatious or attracting the wrong sort of attention. The V3 make the rougher ride of the 40 series tyre much more bearable in ride at low speed, which was concern for me initially ... part of going for an adjustable kit.
Mario R32 has the stock manual gear selector that felt a bit more direct than the short shifters I've used on the R32 in the past. I did notice a squeak coming from the left rear when that section of the R32 was loaded up in right hand turns. I wasn't going to mention it to Mario until he gleaned over the subject. My opinion on the noise ... the left rear sway bar bush needs some oil. Here we go again ... another argument ... trying to explain that when hard thing rubs against another hard thing without oil, it tends to create noise. I'm told by other owners that the bushes in the neupseed kits are very hard. The rear bar only on the R32 offers great turn in; but it tends to fall in a heap mid corner and corner exit is even worse ... understeer city with the front too soft relative to rear; save for the OEM Haldex helping things along. Driving from the road onto a short contort bridge, the stiffer neuspeed rear bar tied down that end better ... all the dynamic force returns to the front of the R32, which felt like a seesaw ... like a boat lost at rough sea. On smooth roads the stiff rear bar only is not as noticeable on ride & stability, but in the rough, esp mid corner bumps, the mismatch front to rear hinders the stability of the chassis and the composure of the R32. Not sure when neuspeed will make a front sway bar for the R32, it's been like 18 months and others are still waiting. In contrast, the KW V3 absorbed every hit quietly with very little movement in the chassis that really impresses. The Eibach ProKit/FSD package was also good on this bridge, but with less body control, softer and noisier. So what will Mario buy? PSS10 -v- KW V3? Undecided atm. Good news is MarioR32 captured a few pics that should be better quality than mine.
Cheers
WJ
On the second short drive, MarioR32 dropped by to sample the KW V3 for himself to aid his decision regarding the PSS10 -v- KW V3 conundrum. In turn I got to have a few blasts in his sexy UG R32 with rear neuspeed sway bar & Gruppe M intake. After an argument regarding the need or no-need for CAI, ECU and exhaust on the R32 (I'm saying no need - save ur money), we drove the GTI and R32 back to back on a tidy section roadway with heaps of gradients and short sharp turns, and a nasty looking low level convoluted bridge. Mario noted that the GTI doesn't move. It doesn't pitch fore or aft, doesn't roll ... just sits flat and stable. Yet the ride is very good; suprisingly good for such a firm & tight suspension package. No noise apart from the leather rear seat squeaking. Overall Mario appeared very impressed with the V3 kit & H&R bars. He also loved the overall look of the GTI, especially the 18" Huff wheels with grey shadow interior that masks the brake dust ... they really do set the car apart without being ostentatious or attracting the wrong sort of attention. The V3 make the rougher ride of the 40 series tyre much more bearable in ride at low speed, which was concern for me initially ... part of going for an adjustable kit.
Mario R32 has the stock manual gear selector that felt a bit more direct than the short shifters I've used on the R32 in the past. I did notice a squeak coming from the left rear when that section of the R32 was loaded up in right hand turns. I wasn't going to mention it to Mario until he gleaned over the subject. My opinion on the noise ... the left rear sway bar bush needs some oil. Here we go again ... another argument ... trying to explain that when hard thing rubs against another hard thing without oil, it tends to create noise. I'm told by other owners that the bushes in the neupseed kits are very hard. The rear bar only on the R32 offers great turn in; but it tends to fall in a heap mid corner and corner exit is even worse ... understeer city with the front too soft relative to rear; save for the OEM Haldex helping things along. Driving from the road onto a short contort bridge, the stiffer neuspeed rear bar tied down that end better ... all the dynamic force returns to the front of the R32, which felt like a seesaw ... like a boat lost at rough sea. On smooth roads the stiff rear bar only is not as noticeable on ride & stability, but in the rough, esp mid corner bumps, the mismatch front to rear hinders the stability of the chassis and the composure of the R32. Not sure when neuspeed will make a front sway bar for the R32, it's been like 18 months and others are still waiting. In contrast, the KW V3 absorbed every hit quietly with very little movement in the chassis that really impresses. The Eibach ProKit/FSD package was also good on this bridge, but with less body control, softer and noisier. So what will Mario buy? PSS10 -v- KW V3? Undecided atm. Good news is MarioR32 captured a few pics that should be better quality than mine.
Cheers
WJ
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Back2VW
LOL WUT
- Location
- Dallas, TX
Great job again James!
You sold me on the Neuspeed/FSD cup kit in your review.. now I have that and could not be happier!
You sold me on the Neuspeed/FSD cup kit in your review.. now I have that and could not be happier!