Review: KW V3 coilover ... GTI

[WhiteJames]

Muller & Muller gave me a race car type of setup. Rear is a tad lower than front to add stability when hard on the brakes and at higher speed with more initial push into corners. With this ride height balance changed front to rear, rebound & compression set up on half/half, the GTI is oh so stable under brakes ... the whole car is stable. GTI is probably a bit too low for my personal taste, but I'm not willing to change atm, until everything settles. Probably low enough to attraction the wrong type of attention. As with the previous suspension, I don't think the rear will settle very much, if any at all (1-2mm). The front should settle at least 5mm. This is clearly evident in Jester_Fu's R32 with the HPA KW SHS coilover that has shown an easily discernable drop in ride height, esp at the front. Jester_Fu says ride height reduction via settlement was progressive for over 3 months. We didn't measure, but difference in ride height between GTI and R32 is not too indifferent.

Grip levels have definitely been improved threshold of traction loss higher again with extra miles. Almost feels like you don't need the awd of the R32 unless in very tight corners or wet/greasy conditions. Jester_Fu brought up an interesting point in that some of the stability control - brake force/anti skid software may not be intervening as much due to the stability of the chassis and anti-dive qualities now present ... who needs an anti-dive/anti-squat caster kit with this KW V3 coilover (or the NVH issues). Now that we have been on smooth roads, opening up the GTI a bit more, traction control device have taken a back seat. My computer read out at the start of the day was reading 5600km to service; by the end of the day, it was saying service now. The 5,000km 6 month service was due last week, so not sure if the new suspension setup has confused the computer/sensors or the extra kays in the last 3 days has triggered the upgrade to service. I purposely waited for service to have KW V3 settled in first, so as the computer can be reset if need be.

We had my neighbour Ray the last drive. After the drive, Ray was sold on the KW V3 for his R32. Like all KW kits ... it's very quiet, better NVH than stock ... Ray says like having no suspension at all, you just don't hear it. Ride is unbelieveably well considering the V3 sporting intent and half/half settings (Ride on HPA KW SHS is much better though), and handles the rough stuff with ease, never bottoming out, crashing or banging. The previous setup would lean heavily on the outside front wheel when attacking a corner, a combination of softer suspension relative to sway bar stiffness. The front outside tyre would roll into positive camber, showing some tearing on the very outer part of the front outer tyre. The GTI doesn't lean as hard on the this tyre, resisting the positive camber roll during corning. KW V3 don't offer the super-repsonsive or terse ride of the Bilstein/H&R kits that really sporty drivers may prefer, can't imagine the Bilstein PSS10 set on half way would ride as good as the KW V3. Having said this, the KW V3 on half/half was notably terse on the faster flowing rougher B-grade roadways; for these types of roads the HPA KW SHS is preferable. Trade to Bilstein/H&R is some loss of connection & roadway feel in the KW V3 - always have the option of changing the settings in the V3 to create something similar to the PSS10/H&R; but the two will always differ. New pics are a big improvement.

Cheers
WJ

 

[Jester_Fu]

Thanks lord Jester_Fu has a half decent camera.

Just no filters... I"m getting some today. Damn bright Aussie sun.

Yep, the KW V3 is certainly the kit to have for road holding, feedback and agility. The response of the GTI feels much more rapid and controlled. As WJ has said, the ESP light is almost like it's been burnt out and no longer working. I think a large contributor to that fact is the improved dynamics of the car under braking. As the car no longer nose dives and has a much more neutral feel under hard brakes, the gyroscope inside the car detects less yaw and pitch which means the ESP system doesn't react. Yeah... sounds funny to have a gyroscope in a car, and i didn't believe it hte first time i was told - but modern ESP in Euro cars has a gyro to determin the pitch and yaw of the car. It's the most accurate way to do it. So, if you can reduce those two factors in a stock car, you can reduce ESP intervention even when you leave the system on.

Over large energy input (i.e. big bumps) the V3 just doesn't shake. As WJ said, the ride in my SHS kit is better, but the V3 just doesn't let go. It feels controlled in all conditions and tells you what's about to happen. Unsettled on side of the car only or just one wheel? The V3 responds with a resound 'meh' and lets you focus on pointing the car where you wanted it to go.

Noise levels in the V3 are amazing. In Fatty's R32, it was obvious the noise was better. I thought the GTI might find the same kit a bit to heavily sprung and damped for the lighter weight on the front wheels... but nope. This V3 kit is an exact match to the GTI. As WJ pointed out to me, this should be expected as it's a different part number!! But it's just so quiet. The resounding commnet on the day was that every KW kit we've driven has checked all the boxes: Less noise than OEM, better ride than OEM and improved sporting feel from OEM. It seems impossible to get all three attributes in an after market suspension kit, but the KW delivers. Which begs the question - Why VW@... why oh why don't you get KW to do your OEM suspension design????

Don't get me wrong - the H&R equiped R32 i've driven is also a big step up from OEM. Massive. BUT - it compromises feel and road holding at the expense of noise. Yes, there's been some reported clunking issues, but they have a cure. I'm talking about noise from the system under normal operation.
Particualrly with OEM, you can hear the gas in the shocks being compressed over large bumps and rushing past the seals. No such issue with the KW kits.

In the R32 and GTI my opinion is that for the driving i do and the roads i travel, the KW V3 kits are a bit firm. I think my SHS is the compromise i need for improved road holding and feel without compromising comfort on longer trips. The black R32 is now a 'proper' sport tourer. The V3 equiped GTI and R32 are more along the lines of dedicated sports cars.

Balance, control, predicatability and pace - the V3 equiped GTI has them all in large bucket loads. You can't seem to throw the car and braking is massively improved on both the V3 equiped Golfs i've driven. The question that should be asked is probably pretty simple: If you're looking at buying improved suspension for a raod going Golf, why aren't you buying KW?? :biggrin:

The final question - which is sexier? Well, we all know that 3 doors are much much sexier... so obviously it's the R32 this time :lol:

 

[G-rig]

Interesting comments about the traction control. It's the same feeling i got about the feel of the Haldex after installing the coilovers + sway bars - it either doesn't need to work as hard, or harder to notice the effects due to the improved vehicle dynamics.

The KW are different but there is no reason my front would settle as it's sitting on metal, the rear is on the rubber which is why it settled initially.

Sexy ... and the R32 is not a bad bit of kit either.

The final question - which is sexier? Well, we all know that 3 doors are much much sexier... so obviously it's the R32 this time :lol:

Bit of inconsistencies in these comments :lol:. Bit cheeky of WJ to say the .:R's aren't bad as if they come in 2nd place haha. If i knew they were better i should have got a GTI :biggrin: Question is who was faster through the corners - would be a bit of a close one?

Ps. What's NVH?

 

[WhiteJames]

Greg: We may have to start testing you on this read. See earlier explanation:

(vi) A critical component of any suspension upgrade for me is the level of NVH – Noise, Harshness and Vibration.

The Eibach ProKit were a bit noisy off driveway lips and on full compression (spring bind). I had the ProKit sleeved (KW V3 front springs come from factory with sleeves), which cut done noise by up to 50% on heavy compressions of the spring. In this respect, the KW coilover kits are the best I've tried to date for NVH. On another note: this baby has put onto vortex - not once but twice. Furthermore; spending some time in the manual R32 - both OEM shifter & HPA shifter - I like the HPA short moreso, despite a more rubbering feeling - but am more confident with the OEM shifter being a owner of an auto/DSG vehicle.

Cheers
WJ

 

[G-rig]

Sorry, must have missed that mate.

Edit: I think the short shifter if fine if you're used to driving a manual. Can hardly criticise it if you're not though. I've never missed a gear (well not due to the short shifter).

Some race cars have the rear slighly lower to allow forward weight transfer on breaking, but i think as long as the front still as room to move its not really required for the streets. Would be good to feel what the V3 can do on the track and fully test it. Even then i thought progressive rate springs aren't ideal for a track setup, but i couldn't live with proper track suspension on the roads.

 

[WhiteJames]

Return the White GTI to the dealer for a 5,000km/6 mth new oil & filter job. Had them look at the computer display re: computer/sensors being knocked about or confused. All okay. They have been setting the service intervals at 5K/6mths at my request; so it was expected.

GTI is feeling great and no negatives. No scraping the front splitter on driveway lips or speed bumps - front is same height atm as the previous setup; which has been purchased by another forum member (thanks to all others that expressed interest).

On another note: There are still another up to 4 months supply of R32 in this country. Spoke to the Manager that sold my GTI to me 2.5 years ago. They have a Blue 5 door DSG for 59K drive away. Good value considering Pirelli Rd costs 55-56K drive away. Almost tempted myself. Manager would rather go Pirelli Ed or my new improved GTI. Negative of the R32 is that the Haldex system has to be serviced every 30K, setting you back @ $400. DSG on both GTI and R32 is at 60K and is $800 alone - $1200 for total 60K service. Ouch.

Cheers
WJ

 

[G-rig]

Negative of the R32 is that the Haldex system has to be serviced every 30K, setting you back @ $400. DSG on both GTI and R32 is at 60K and is $800 alone - $1200 for total 60K service. Ouch.

Cheers
WJ

Are you thinking of upgrading WJ? What about the new models coming out? A Pirelli would be nice as would a mk5 R32.. If it were me i'd probably hang out for the GTI-R but all hard decisions.

That DSG service cost is something you don't hear about up front when deciding on the transmission type. (I suppose the same could be said about Haldex, but some people say to do the Gen II at that time but don't know how that makes sense as it's just the computer that gets replaced).

Depends how long people plan to keep the car and how many km they do. Those services may not come around that often time-wise and most peopel would spend more on mods to worry about that. Interesting to see how a DSG feels after 100,000km. I'd imagine it would start to feel a bit loose like auto's whereas manuals can have the boots replaced etc..

 

[WhiteJames]

DSG on GTI and R32 is a wet clutch system that contains expensive oil which makes up much of the cost of the 60K service. Sevice Manager and Dealer Manager both state that the DSG is designed & built to never be opened or have the wet clutches replaced; unlike the manual which has a dry clutch. In theory ... the DSG should outlast the entire vehicle ... well motor at the very least. Only way to remove or open the DSG is installation of LSD or by breaking it.

Looks like I'll be keeping my GTI for some time yet ... did less than 5,000km in 6 months. That's with a long distance trip. Most kays for me are racked with employer's vehicles. I wouldn't buy a Pirelli as it does not have an LSD. New GTI is supoosed to have some sort of electronic LSD (read traction control/esc device). I think the R32 will be a classic in years to come and hold their value better; but GTI-R would be more fun. Still not worth the extra dough over what I have. Mine is handles, grips, and rides so well with a very neutral chassis setup. Apart from wet conditions and short sharp corners; the GTI has been asking whether you require a awd R32.

I'm not boy racer but did look at the Mitsubishi EVO and Ralliart. Terrible interior quality; just awful - Subbie WRX is the same, only ugly on outside and inside. I'm happy with my GTI for several years to come; that's part of putting in the KW V3 kit. Maybe later when its 8-10 years old or a second car, I make take it to Wakefield.

In the interim: I wouldn't mind a motorcycle. Probably track that instead of the car (have to get my bike license first; even though I have ridden & raced dirt bikes). Very happy with GTI atm. Will raise ride height 5-10mm down the track; otherwise cop too much flak from work collegues. Height settings are still well within legal tolerances.

Cheers
WJ

 

[G-rig]

Less than <5,000km in 6 months is nothing mate! With that in mind you may not even reach 60,000km.

I tend to agree and don't think it's really worth upgrading to a Pirelli unless you had an older or high km MK5 (ie 4 years old) but would be nice to have the KO4 setup.

Hopefully the R32 should be a classic for years to come, and i think the resale will be better than GTI's (also not as common).

As far as mods its more worthwhile to mod the GTI, as the R32 isn't bad as stock. Don't really regret any of the mods but the idea of upgrading to the R32 was so i wouldn't need to do too much :lol:.

Anyway they are all good cars and pretty hard to decide if i had to again but i wouldn't bother upgrading to a mk6 GTI or a Pirelli if i had a newish current model GTI..

 

[OZVWConvert]

DSG on both GTI and R32 is at 60K and is $800 alone - $1200 for total 60K service. Ouch.

I paid a lot less than that for my 60k... DSG was less than $400 at TCCA and they actually replaced the oil filter where the dealers don't!!

 

[ApexTwin]

James, did you have to get an engineers certificate for the coilovers?

 

[Jester_Fu]

^There's no requirements in the RTA or ADR's regarding suspension components if the rest of the car is standard. There are requirements on ride height, but nort else. That's the reason you can go to Pedders, for example, and buy a new set of Pedders branded shocks and springs for your XD Falcon Ute without requiring an engineers certificate. The products also don't need to be certified to any AS :wink: Yep, it's crazy given how important suspension is to stoping a car and ensuring it doesn't crash... but that's our wise and all knowing government for ya.

BTW: Have you got an Engineers certificate for your dogbone? That's a structural mod... You'll find those sorts of mods can impact the crash rating of the car in a front impact as it effects the ability of the engine to travel under the car, as required to pass ADR's.

 

[WhiteJames]

^Jester_Fu makes some very salient points. My KW V3 actually came with a TUV certificate ... albeit in German. The English version is able to be downloaded of the KW website.

It worth noting; that regardless of what suspension product you have, if it is not tuned properly, your vehicle is liable to be defected after a period of observation of its ride & handling characteristics; if there is cause for concern.

Take for example when Tiny GTI installed his Hotchkis anti-roll bars (aka APR arb's) with his KW V3 setup. On a country drive, observing the handling traits of this vehicle indicated that the rear way too stiff with the Hotchkis set to increase stiffness up to 200% over std rear sway bar. This had the rear end getting light, picking itself up and wanting to leave the roadway with far too much oversteer. Potentially very dangerous. Tiny GTI and I swapped vehicles for a drive and suggestion was made to soften up the sway bars to bring the handling back to acceptable limits.

Point is that an incorrect setup too hard or too soft will also be subject to defect, based on what others see. Similar thing with very low hard springs put into a vehicle with stock dampers; if a bouncy uncontrollable ride is observed with an underdamped setup, then the whole lot has to come out. If your ride is so firm in compression that its starts to skip and become skittish; same deal. Hell, even the clunking noise of the tug'n'release can be defected as the vehicle was not designed to make this sound in the first instance.

If the authorities reasonably believe that cause for concern; then its defectable. Most workshops have a duty of care to put in a system that will work and generally there are max & min parameters to adhere to when lowering, adding stiffness, etc for each vehicle. Producing a universally recognised TUV certificate to the RTA may help justify your case through the pits. If you have a custom made setup or custom sway bar; then you have no other authority to rely on, which makes it difficult when forced to go over the pits.

Cheers
WJ

 

[G-rig]

James, did you have to get an engineers certificate for the coilovers?

You're better off worrying about your insurance companies requirements for suspension IMO. Nearly everyone has lowered suspension and isn't goin to raise too many eyebrows with the DOT or police inspections.

 

[WhiteJames]

During the period of running on the KW V3 kit, I noticed a metallic rattle sound (metal to metal) coming from the left front wheel/driveshaft when turning full lock right at very slow speed; esp reversing and turning into my garage. The noise is so slight that not many can hear it out in the hustle and bustle of daily grind and is triggered by the rotation of the front left wheel when at or near full right lock. Had local dealer check the undercarriage with particular attention paid to the left driveshaft area. Nothing noteworthy found and some oil added which helped to a degree. Vehicle will be returned to the dealer for a driveshaft and differential inspection ... with a view to replacing the front left CV (Constant Velocity) joint. The CV boot/dust protector is not damaged in any way. Dealer is indicating that it could be anything from a sliced or chipped spline off the driveshaft, stripped spool on the diff or possibly even drama with the DSG gearbox. Warranty most probably cover the repair job and my money is on the problem being a worn left CV joint that is on its way out ... with @ 40,000km on the odo. A little earlier than expected (expecting the CV joints call it a day @ 80K-120K). No issues or cause attributed to the upgraded suspension as indicated by the dealer themselves. Anyone dealt with Tony Haid @ Autohaus Strecker at Alexandria (Sydney) for repairs and tuning ... http://www.autohaus.com.au/index.htm. Muller & Muller are great, but a little far from work for routine maintainence.

Cheers
WJ