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Review: KW V3 coilover ... GTI

WhiteJames

Fun Nazi
Location
Sydney
Car(s)
VW Golf GTI MKV
Rattle issue resolved. New left side driveshaft fitted under warranty. Dealership wasn't allowed to strip the old drive shaft down as it has to be sent somewhere else to be checked. Looks like the issue was in the CV joint near the left wheel hub. Service guys also tightened up the 8 sub-frame bolts a little to keep it all tight underneath. No arguments or fuss with warranty job, despite the aftermarket coilovers or sway bars. Next ... wheel alignment. Not sure if I will change wheel alignment settings again.

Cheers
WJ
 

moomoonel

Just finished watching Fast&Fuzzynuts
Location
Sydney
very nice, WJ!

your car now deserve a set of lightweight rims
 

WhiteJames

Fun Nazi
Location
Sydney
Car(s)
VW Golf GTI MKV
Have a set of lighter weight rims ... sort of. Have the OEM 17" Denvers sitting in the shed down south at the farm. 23lbs Denver -v- 28lbs of the Huffs. The BBS CH are great looking (23lbs) and OZ Racing Ultras (19lbs) would be nice for a good looking set of lightweight rims in 18" size. I favour the silver that don Greg's R32; even for a white GTI. Sexy.

Some argue that going the KW V3 route is a bit of overkill for street use. I differ.

Atm I'm torn between the handling/ride compromise. I love the handling at higher speed esp on the highway and in the tight twisties outside of town. In the city, the firm ride of the half/half settings of the rebound/low speed compression coupled with the stiffer sidewalls of the 18" tyres can be taxing. Esp in the front end compression setting (half way).

Compression damping controls the oscillation of the car's unsprung weight; therefore its normal to run less compression than rebound damping. A notch up on the Bilstein PSS10/H&R/Sachs coilovers only gives half as much compression as rebound. Spring rate is fixed in the KW V3 and determines how far your chassis rolls, pitches or squats. The damper rates determine the 'length of time' it takes for each of these movements to occur.

Beauty is, I'm able to tailor my ride/handling equation to suit my preference ... to a degree of course. In this repsect, paying extra for coilovers with separate adjustment for rebound & low speed compression is well worth the spend. Esp if your anal about your ride/handling.

With wheel alignment due soon; may look at winding down the front compression & rebound and rear compression for better ride in town. Maybe from half way setting to quarter for front compression & rebound & rear compression only.

The rear rebound may be difficult to access; so may leave this setting alone for now; saves pulling out the damper tops for now. Second reason for leaving the rear rebound at half atm is that front wheel drives like a bit of rear rebound: Accelarating from standstill with higher rear rebound keeps the back end of squating too much for too long, aiding traction at the front driving wheels. More rear rebound also helps turn in for fwd; which reduces understeer on corner entry - similar to having a rear only sway bar for improved turn in. The understeer/oversteer can be adjusted to a degree with the compression & rebound settings; rather than sway bars, tyres, wheel track, wheel alignment, ride height variance front to rear or a change in spring rates.

Generally:

The first part of the corner (entry) is affected by - Compression rate in front & Rebound rate in the rear.
The second part of the corner (apex to exit) is affected by - Rebound rate in front & Compression rate in rear.

Alternative could be to just reduce the front end compression and leave front end rebound & entire rear setttings the same. Playing with the settings if half the fun.

Wouldn't mind lifting the rear 3-5mm; but still some time required for front end to settle downwards; 3 months perhaps. Lift in rear should also improve turn in with some loss in braking stability when hard on the anchors.

Cheers
WJ
 
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WhiteJames

Fun Nazi
Location
Sydney
Car(s)
VW Golf GTI MKV
Revisions to KW V3 settings:

Traveling @ 400-500km after installation of the KW V3 coil over kit, it was time to have a wheel alignment at Jobsons Bridgestone – Taren Point to ensure all is straight & true. Alterations to the compression & rebound were also made. The initial 400-500km allowed for everything to move around and bed in. During this period, the 8 sub-frame bolts were tightened in addition to receiving a new left side CV joint-driveshaft under warranty.

After repeated driving stints around town, it become evident that the half way (50%) settings of the rebound & low speed compression were too high on the KW V3 for this type of driving (low speed). Out on the smooth open freeway or the better part of B-grade roadways, the half/half settings were a treat. Firm, direct, sharp and controlled. In town, the low speed ride over high frequency undulations was feeling a bit like my unsuspended hybrid racer bicycle with the GTI bobbing up and down with little compliance and annoying passengers and driver at times. Half/half values with city only driving will become taxing.

Larger bumps are fine as high speed compression is pre-set and not adjustable. Like the previous Koni FSD/Eibach ProKit setup, the softer high speed compression valve does not come into play until after 50kph; when bumps are struck with higher intensity. Due to the firmer rate of compression, a bit of noise emanates from the dash board centre plastic piece as the GTI ran over bumps: with both wheels simultaneously striking undulations or with single wheel bumps (sway have to take some of the blame in addition to compression rate at front). The rougher ride can be attributed primarily to the compression value in the KW V3; as compression has a dramatic effect on unsprung wheel movements. A lesser portion can be attributed to the rebound rates of the V3 and sway bars. With most suspension systems, it’s difficult to find that optimum blend of fast driving tightness and low speed suppleness when dealing with compression & rebound of the damper.

Changing the compression of the dampers is likely to affect the ride height of the vehicle to a degree; so the change in suspension settings was effected prior to the wheel alignment. No use doing the wheel alignment; only to find that the lower compression may create some more sag. The front has settled some 3-5mm in the past several weeks; with limited driving, regardless of any change in compression value.

Altering the settings for compression can be done with the car on level ground. It takes some effort to crawl underneath the lowered front and rear and fiddle with the Allen key for front and pin at rear. The front rebound can be altered relatively by lifting up, but not removing the front plastic engine bay strut cover, and turning the strut top pin with an Allen key. Kevin and Glen at Jobsons Bridgestone have laid down the law that it’s ‘strictly no admittance’ to the workshop. Sales Manager Glen performed the necessary adjustments when the vehicle was up on the hoist without me present. The hoisted GTI allowed for exact measurements. The KW V3 does not click and does not have any numerical values printed on any of the adjustments like other brands of coilover suspension. You have to determine how many turns (2 full turns for compression & 3 full turns for rebound) to decipher the correct damper settings. It's much easier with the GTI in the air than on the ground for exact measurements.

The previous settings of having everything at 50% between full hard & full soft have been changed to the following from full soft:

Front
Compression: 25%
Rebound: 33%

Rear
Compression: 25%
Rebound: 50% (Unchanged)


Note: High speed comrpession cannot be altered on the KW V3 coilover - it is fixed from factory (Ie: Big bumps struck with high intensity). The high speed compression rate is fine IMO.

This setup is a welcome change for urban driving. The front end does feel a bit more distant with a loss in steering sharpness, directness in turn in, composure and mid corner speed. The front end does take more time to settle under harder braking – still firmer than the previous Eibach ProKit/ Koni FSD setup - but not much firmer. This can be attributed to the less rebound rate at the front end (33%). The sensation of riding my bicycle with no suspension over high frequency city bumps or strips of patchwork has been notably reduced and the ride is much more tolerable with the reduction from half to a quarter in compression. It's not Koni FSD smooth, but somewhere half way between the orginal settings of the Kw V3 from Muller & Muller and the Koni FSD/Eibach Prokit.

Briskly taking off from the lights on bumpy surfaces with softer compression settings has allowed the front driving wheels greater ability to soak up the undulations, providing more grip than with the previous harder (50%) settings on rougher terrain. Earlier on with half/half settings, the front end would skip over the bumps in the road, compromising drive with a tad too much race car stiffness at lower speeds. The higher rear end rebound relative to front rebound (33%front/50% rear) also helps with front end traction keeping the rear from squatting too much for too long under acceleration.

The dynamics front to rear of the GTI has definitely changed. Everything set at the half way mark is testament to how well KW tune there products. The GTI felt very balanced and oh so good when pressing on - like a little race car; despite some more steering effort required on turn in with the higher compression at the front (50%). For some reason, the stiffer half/half setup made the GTI feel like it was wider with a greater track width. Now the rear end feels more tied down with extra rebound as opposed to the front (33% front/50% rear) which is relatively softer in rebound. The GTI now feels longer like it has a longer wheel base front to rear.

On a short spirited run on the outskirts of Sydney, the revised damper rates make the rear end feel a little more nervous as opposed to the front end striking mid corner bumps. The lower front rebound level allows a greater degree of compliance and better ride; esp at lower speeds, with some loss of control as speed rises. The higher rebound rate in the rear does induce a tad of that rear sway bar only feeling improving turn in on corner entry. On the other hand, the reduction in front end compression detracts from the sharpness of turn in and induces a tad more under steer on corner entry. Hard to say which is more dominant at this stage - less front compression or relatively more rear rebound - re: corner entry. Lean on the GTI a bit harder in the corner and the bigger front sway bar keeps the rear end from stepping out too far under trail braking and aids power down on exit of corner; despite the loss of some rebound in the front end which aids corner exit power down.

Overall; this setup should prove better in wet or greasy conditions. The GTI feels more forgivable; especially at the front end – with some caution still to be exercised under trail braking with the higher rebound rate in the more nervous rear - esp in the wet. The change does have the GTI feeling slightly more like the previous setup; only without that initial floaty feeling of the progressive rate Eibach ProKit Springs. The ride of the GTI is certainly more livable around town, which is what I was aiming for. Nothing beats the Koni FSD for suppleness over the small high frequency undulations and the HPA KW SHS kit still likely to offer a best ride in any other environment & overall. Despite the softening of the KW V3; they are still likely to be up 5-10% firmer than the HPA KW SHS and should ride harder. The high speed compression of the KW V3 is tuned just nicely (can't change this).

See how she goes for the next few months before deciding to make another change. Early days yet. One thing for sure; KW coil over kits are definitely on the sporting side in terms of ride/handling mix.

Cheers
WJ
 
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WhiteJames

Fun Nazi
Location
Sydney
Car(s)
VW Golf GTI MKV
Wheel alignment:

Generally the stock wheel alignment settings for a stock GTI are:

Front
Camber: Zero degrees.
Toe: Zero (dead straight)
Caster: 7 degrees 30 minutes.

Rear
Camber: Negative 1 degree.
Toe: +0.5mm (toe in)

With the lower ride height of the KW V3 and the request of a wheel alignment that will maximize the life of the Bridgestone Potenza RE001 Adrenalin tyres the following wheel alignment settings were adopted:

Front (Lowered @ 20mm)

Camber: Negative 1.1 degrees (this is due to the lower ride height)
Toe: + 0.4mm (maximize tyre life at expense of turn in performance with both front wheels slightly toed inwards; previously it was –0.2mm toe out for improved turn in).
Caster: 8 degrees 20 minutes (Who needs an anti-lift caster kit?).

Rear (Lowered @ 16mm)

Camber: Negative 2 degrees
Toe: + 1.5mm (toe in)

The Volkswagen Golf is only adjustable for toe; not camber or caster. This is done to save costs – both in manufacturing and time taken to alignment the vehicle. Aftermarket camber & caster kits are available.

The toe on the GTI had to be changed to compensate for wear rates. A standard setting of zero toe with the additional negative camber of the lower ride height will have the tyres wearing unevenly with the inner edge wearing faster than the outer edges for normal driving on public roadways. The change from zero toe to toe-in will ensure that the tyre wears evenly. The addition of negative camber from the lower ride improves handling when cornering; but limits grip in the straight line with less tread on the ground. The caster has had a slight change due to the lower ride height (0 degrees 50 minutes).

Cheers
WJ
 

tinto

bitch please
Location
Perth Australia
Car(s)
2009 Pirelli GTI
Interesting - here's my alignment from about a month ago - also on KW V3.
On the left is the pigeon toe alignment from the dealer after which the car felt pretty dead.
I actually thought i could *see* something amiss with my rear wheels.

The right what I had it adjusted to.

Tyre wear seems pretty even over time too.


 

mrx

Connoisseur
Location
Perth, Australia
Car(s)
2007 CW Golf GTI 5dr
Far out, with rear toe out like that it would have made for some really interesting rally driving on dirt roads! :burnrubber:
 

WhiteJames

Fun Nazi
Location
Sydney
Car(s)
VW Golf GTI MKV
Tinto,

Did you tell whoever aligned your GT Golf that you frequent track days. With Almost dead straight front toe and bugger all rear toe, turn-in into corners should be alot better than my GTI. With toe-out at the front when turning, the inside wheel acts like an inside brake helping to drag the car into the turn - can create some instability at higher speeds in a straight line. I have notice a difference with turn-in into corners with my revised wheel alignment settings - definitely not as sporting or offers as good turn-in as my last wheel alignment, which was similar to what you have now. Guys at Jobsons Bridgestone inspect my tyres every 5,000km and based on wear rate, ride height and my request for an alignment for more life out of the Bridgestone RE001, they went for a very conservative setup. Little things like wheel alignment can make a very notable difference.

Cheers
WJ
 

tinto

bitch please
Location
Perth Australia
Car(s)
2009 Pirelli GTI
Far out, with rear toe out like that it would have made for some really interesting rally driving on dirt roads! :burnrubber:
A case of putting in a written application two weeks before any given corner. :biggrin:

Did you tell whoever aligned your GT Golf that you frequent track days.
Yep - they knew why I'd installed the suspension and set it up to suit - it's the same shop that supplied my R888.
My road tyres are currently rotated every couple of thousand km at the most (front to back), so I get to keep an eye on progress there, and it has been pretty consistent/even. My neighbours must think I'm nuts as it all happens on the driveway.

The wear on the R888 is a bit more noticeable on this setup, but those are more often used in anger. So they will be flipped on the rims when they're a bit more hammered so I can take advantage of the fresher meat on the symmetrical, directional tyre.

I'm not too concerned about road tyre life as I'm not on a super-premium asymmetrical road tyre (Kumho KU31). That may change in the future!
 

WhiteJames

Fun Nazi
Location
Sydney
Car(s)
VW Golf GTI MKV
Odd to see that my rear end is running almost half a degree more negative camber and additional caster over your GT Tinto. I would of figure the caster would be the same for all fwd Golfs. The caster has changed with the new coilover setup ... so it may well be the measuring equipment. The extra negative camber may due to lower ride height at the rear on my GTI. After resetting my GTI back to level at the rear, to compensate for the floorpan variation side to side or uneven machining of the rear suspension sub-frame, the right front carries an extra 20 minutes of negative camber than the left front.

Cheers
James
 

DaveOZ

Ready to race!
Location
Sydney
I always do my own wheel alignment. Never trust a machine or it's operator. I use string and patience. I will check my new R32 one day soon when I have time.
 

G-rig

Go Kart Champion
Location
Brisbane
Hey guys, how much different in grip do these camber alighnments make? May do something similar next time as lnog as tyre wear isn't too much worse.
 

WhiteJames

Fun Nazi
Location
Sydney
Car(s)
VW Golf GTI MKV
Greg,

They reckon that 3 degrees negative camber is about as much as you'd tolerate for street driving. On the track they can run a lot more. The more you lower, the more negative camber induced. Honda are notorious for inducing too much negative camber at the rear when lowered and often require a camber adjustment kit.

Really no need for camber kits in VW unless you frequent the track regularly; where you would want heaps of negative camber for hard cornering, giving extra cornering grip & stopping the outer edges of the tyre chewing out from positive camber roll in corners.

KMAC, H&R and Eibach make adjustable camber kits - most are strut top adjustment (not H&R which is like a bolt type). Some can be noisey for everyday driving.

Cheers
WJ
 
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G-rig

Go Kart Champion
Location
Brisbane
Thanks for that explanation WJ. I could next time ask for a bit of negative camber but sounds like it's not that worthwhile if i'm not going to the track - definitely don't need a camber kit. (Without taking over the thread, similarly i don't think i'd need the Haldex switch, but race mode would be an interesting proposition).
 

funny

VCDS guru & soon Dad x2 !
Location
Sydney
Car(s)
Golf MkV GTI MY07
Nice read WJ.

Given the "twitchyness" that is now somewhat present in the rear, would you consider returning the rear bar (from hard) to soft to match with the front on soft?

I wonder if a sportier suspension reduces the effect of front-rear sway bar differential on handling (i.e. rear only bar on stock suspension feels worse than rear only bar on sportier suspension). I suspect this may be the case as the suspension is doing a better job at keeping more wheel contact on the ground perhaps.
 
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