GOLFMK8
GOLFMK7
GOLFMK6
GOLFMKV

APR K03 EGT's and Component Protection

Keith@APR

Banned
Location
Auburn, AL
I thought 112-4 was post turbine? I have seen Dave's infamous thread from 06, but I also see recent posts from APR reps including yourself making claims about how APR is safe and component protection will keep you running cool, other tuners aren't, they run dangerous EGT's, will cause hardware failure etc. I haven't seen any evidence of this. And if the logs are all bunk then how can you even make those claims? Has APR purchased other companies software and tested it with the said external devices?

Back on topic...Isn't APR software consistent enough that even if VCDS isn't able to accurately measure EGT after the car is modified, that there would still be norms for stage 2, stage 2+ etc, where if a customer sent Chris@APR some logs well outside of that range he would notice? Surely you don't have one guy showing 800 and the next pegged at 999...so what kind of range should customers look for?


Here is what I can help with and please understand that ECU Upgrades and Calibration Philosophies are always evolving as new technology is introduced and new ecu mapping and coding is continually implemented by the OEM.

Meaning, what I am about to say may not be 100% accurate to all OEM and APR calibrations across 06 and 07 style FSI engines and TSI engines in Mk5's vs. Mk6's etc.

OEM EGT Logs = Accurate
APR Stage 1 EGT Logs = Accurate
APR Stage 2 or any higher level = Inaccurate

Here's why:

EGT's are collected by the oxygen sensor which is not pre-turbine and there are models or calculations inside the ecu that know that x temp at the 02 = y temp at pre-turbine and that there is a direct relationship between the 2 as long as all hardware that affects EGT's is the same as the model is designed to allow.

This means OEM EGT logs and Stage 1 EGT logs should be perfectly accurate.

When you move to a Stage 2 ecu you are getting a calibration that was made and tested with actual EGT's that differ from the modeled EGT's as reported by datalogging the ECU. This is so because when you change the downpipe, this greatly effects the EGT model accuracy in the ECU. So, you have to insert an EGT probe and measure the EGT's some other way than the ECU. Greatly btw, is relative to your perspective. Some tuners don't consider this a major change, however, APR does. Also, there is no longer a direct relationship to ecu logged EGT's and actual EGT's due to the hardware change. It simply doesn't work that way in such a dynamic system. Lot's of EGT model mapping and coding would have to be adjusted for the new downpipe. We know by simply looking at EGT models inside the ECU of say a GTi vs. an ED30 GTi or TT-S, or even a TSI vs. a FSI. The models are drastically different. True, other hardware is different than just a downpipe between those models but a change is a change and the EGT model is very complex.

We've talked about the maximum peak EGT spec and the maximum sustained EGT spec.

ECU datalogging reads up to 999c. This is below the actual EGT spec of the turbocharger and other components. That being said, I've seen some Stage 1 ECU's knock on the 999c door and maybe hit it for a couple of data points but then it comes back down quickly as hardware protection mapping kicks in.

What concerns us is when the 999c report from the ECU stays pegged for a period of time that is too long. This usually means that the EGT's are continuing to rise way above the 999c that the ecu is able to measure.

If they hit 999c for only a few data points, you can assume the EGT's are around 1010c at maximum. However, if they hit 999c for several data points, you can only imagine how high they are climbing before settling back below the 999c.

This is what we look for in customer datalogs. There is no exact recipe but we use our experience of what our calibrations reach via an actual pre-turbine EGT probe if Stage 2 or more compared to the amount of time it reaches and exceeds 999c in the ecu logs.

If the EGT's flatline at maximum reading and never come back down during the pull, its safe to assume you have an EGT problem and the hardware protection mapping isn't doing its job. This can happen if the tuner you use turns off hardware protection mapping and runs too lean or too much boost or if they calibrate the hardware protection mapping to the same requested AFR as their too lean primary fueling surface (some tuners claim they don't disable EGT protection mapping when they use this recalibration method but they are essentially doing the same thing as turning it off) or if your wastegate is not oem like its been tweaked or replaced with one that doesn't integrate into the OEM EMS (like those with different w/g tensions than OEM). This can also happen if so much hardware has been changed that the EGT model is completely and totally useless. We've only experienced this at Stage 3 calibrations and higher. With Stage 2, we can still look at the amount of time its at 999c and based on our previous actual EGT testing via a probe pre-turbine, can estimate if this is an issue for our clients or not.

Will we give the general public our exact EGT standards at all Staged ECU Upgrade levels for your own diagnosis? Sure, if that was all it would be used for.:frown: Unfortunately, since we've started talk of this EGT stuff, other tuners have paid attention as well and have improved their product.

That's good for the community so we share what we can but helping other companies is not good for business and I like my job.:thumbsup:

I hope this helps.
 

Poko

Ready to race!
Location
Israel
what keith just said is accurate info , i was wondering if to post it since i didn't know if APR treat this info as a trade secret.

when i was at stage1 on my k04 car (oem) which made 300whp i could touch 999 on the road on a very hard second to sixth pull but it would stay there for just a click or two before you could see the ECU cooling the engine and the temps drop back down.

on the dyno however in "lab conditions" i could never make the EGT go over 940 , no matter what i did.

as i progressed now from stage1 i am planning on installing an EGT probe in order to be able to really monitor the EGT's.

in my opinion EGT's are areal problem since the TFSI engines run really hot and i have seen logs of completly stock cars reaching 950 degrees. so once you start tuning the turbo trashold of 1050 degrees is too close for comfort.

@Chris - Since this thread is becoming interesting , please allow me to ignore your BS reply.
 

staulkor

V-Dubber
Location
Tempe, Arizona
Car(s)
VW GTI MkV Fahrenhei
I want massive data point logging for the 2.0t :'(
 

GeauxGTI

GeauxGTI
Location
Miami, FL
I am sure this whole duel between APR and Revo is an age old thing but as a new prospective customer it is a REAL turnoff to see a f..ing flame war going on between two established companies. (this does not refer to Keith's response which was actually helpful). Seriously it is very unprofessional and its pretty easy to be the bigger man and just reply to people's concerns instead of throwing allegations back and forth. This post is addressed to both companies.
 

07Noside

Banned
Location
x
Here is what I can help with and please understand that ECU Upgrades and Calibration Philosophies are always evolving as new technology is introduced and new ecu mapping and coding is continually implemented by the OEM.

Meaning, what I am about to say may not be 100% accurate to all OEM and APR calibrations across 06 and 07 style FSI engines and TSI engines in Mk5's vs. Mk6's etc.

OEM EGT Logs = Accurate
APR Stage 1 EGT Logs = Accurate
APR Stage 2 or any higher level = Inaccurate

Here's why:

EGT's are collected by the oxygen sensor which is not pre-turbine and there are models or calculations inside the ecu that know that x temp at the 02 = y temp at pre-turbine and that there is a direct relationship between the 2 as long as all hardware that affects EGT's is the same as the model is designed to allow.

This means OEM EGT logs and Stage 1 EGT logs should be perfectly accurate.

When you move to a Stage 2 ecu you are getting a calibration that was made and tested with actual EGT's that differ from the modeled EGT's as reported by datalogging the ECU. This is so because when you change the downpipe, this greatly effects the EGT model accuracy in the ECU. So, you have to insert an EGT probe and measure the EGT's some other way than the ECU. Greatly btw, is relative to your perspective. Some tuners don't consider this a major change, however, APR does. Also, there is no longer a direct relationship to ecu logged EGT's and actual EGT's due to the hardware change. It simply doesn't work that way in such a dynamic system. Lot's of EGT model mapping and coding would have to be adjusted for the new downpipe. We know by simply looking at EGT models inside the ECU of say a GTi vs. an ED30 GTi or TT-S, or even a TSI vs. a FSI. The models are drastically different. True, other hardware is different than just a downpipe between those models but a change is a change and the EGT model is very complex.

We've talked about the maximum peak EGT spec and the maximum sustained EGT spec.

ECU datalogging reads up to 999c. This is below the actual EGT spec of the turbocharger and other components. That being said, I've seen some Stage 1 ECU's knock on the 999c door and maybe hit it for a couple of data points but then it comes back down quickly as hardware protection mapping kicks in.

What concerns us is when the 999c report from the ECU stays pegged for a period of time that is too long. This usually means that the EGT's are continuing to rise way above the 999c that the ecu is able to measure.

If they hit 999c for only a few data points, you can assume the EGT's are around 1010c at maximum. However, if they hit 999c for several data points, you can only imagine how high they are climbing before settling back below the 999c.

This is what we look for in customer datalogs. There is no exact recipe but we use our experience of what our calibrations reach via an actual pre-turbine EGT probe if Stage 2 or more compared to the amount of time it reaches and exceeds 999c in the ecu logs.

If the EGT's flatline at maximum reading and never come back down during the pull, its safe to assume you have an EGT problem and the hardware protection mapping isn't doing its job. This can happen if the tuner you use turns off hardware protection mapping and runs too lean or too much boost or if they calibrate the hardware protection mapping to the same requested AFR as their too lean primary fueling surface (some tuners claim they don't disable EGT protection mapping when they use this recalibration method but they are essentially doing the same thing as turning it off) or if your wastegate is not oem like its been tweaked or replaced with one that doesn't integrate into the OEM EMS (like those with different w/g tensions than OEM). This can also happen if so much hardware has been changed that the EGT model is completely and totally useless. We've only experienced this at Stage 3 calibrations and higher. With Stage 2, we can still look at the amount of time its at 999c and based on our previous actual EGT testing via a probe pre-turbine, can estimate if this is an issue for our clients or not.

Will we give the general public our exact EGT standards at all Staged ECU Upgrade levels for your own diagnosis? Sure, if that was all it would be used for.:frown: Unfortunately, since we've started talk of this EGT stuff, other tuners have paid attention as well and have improved their product.

That's good for the community so we share what we can but helping other companies is not good for business and I like my job.:thumbsup:

I hope this helps.

:laughabove:
you and Arin are the biggest propagandist artists I've ever seen in modern days. You can't even answer a question without going way off into left field lol. Its ok atleast Arin fucked it up too on the tex with other posters chinming in that they are know second guessing that if apr's reps actually even know anything lol.


plain truth right infront of their face, but they wont even regard the subject! thats what you do when you know your behind the 8 ball " ummm next question" lolol

Remember how arin and keith kept telling me that I was gonna have my turbo explode from my dangerous EGT's then I see projected values off of apr cars being higher then mine were lol. then I see apr cars with cracked turbo's it pretty simple haha =)
 

Voices Off Camera

Ready to race!
Location
Houston, Texas
Remember how arin and keith kept telling me that I was gonna have my turbo explode from my dangerous EGT's then I see projected values off of apr cars being higher then mine were lol. then I see apr cars with cracked turbo's it pretty simple haha =)


You fail to mention that one of the cars was on GIAC software for ~35k miles (APR software for 24k). The turbo failure was idenitified at 64k. The other car you are referring to had 75k miles on it and had seen numerous track days over a 4 year period. If you can honestly draw the "simple" conclusion you make from that, more power to you. One has to realize that you aren't exactly an unbiased poster on here.... probably obvious to anybody who has posted "APR" in a thread title/thread. lol haha =)

The reality is that all of the software currently available is pushing the K03 well beyond its design criteria. This is something BSH has stated (not trying to bring them into this) and any resonable person in here should realize. Turbo failure of some variety should be expected on chipped cars as mileage starts to climb, especially if the owner has tracked the car.
 

Arin@APR

GOLFMK7 Official Sponsor
Location
Auburn, Al
Car(s)
B8 S4, MK7 GSW TDI
We see this all the time. People will tell us we are wrong and they will push cars way beyond what we feel is safe or will attempt to do a build that crazy and defies physics.

Suddenly out of nowhere the project goes unfinished and or the car is up for sale.

Noside sold his car.

Go figure.
 

rmat16

Passed Driver's Ed
Location
Miami, FL
this party really died..
 

MMD

Oval Champion
Location
Qatar
You fail to mention that one of the cars was on GIAC software for ~35k miles (APR software for 24k). The turbo failure was idenitified at 64k. The other car you are referring to had 75k miles on it and had seen numerous track days over a 4 year period. If you can honestly draw the "simple" conclusion you make from that, more power to you. One has to realize that you aren't exactly an unbiased poster on here.... probably obvious to anybody who has posted "APR" in a thread title/thread. lol haha =)

The reality is that all of the software currently available is pushing the K03 well beyond its design criteria.

This is something BSH has stated (not trying to bring them into this) and any resonable person in here should realize. Turbo failure of some variety should be expected on chipped cars as mileage starts to climb, especially if the owner has tracked the car.

Totally agree with you ..!! :thumbsup:
 

07Noside

Banned
Location
x
We see this all the time. People will tell us we are wrong and they will push cars way beyond what we feel is safe or will attempt to do a build that crazy and defies physics.

Suddenly out of nowhere the project goes unfinished and or the car is up for sale.

Noside sold his car.

Go figure.

"Noside sold his car" Go figure! I spend thousands of dollars on my car and I upgrade to something thats more to my liking

Where to start, Ok so by what your saying I'll take a stab in the dark and guess your trying to insinuate that for some reason some how something on my car either broke or blew up and thats why I sold it.

OK I can see where you might get that idea from I did do things that no one else could achieve, try new things that are out of the norm kind of be a pioneer in the market I guess you could say!

But lets think sensably, In the past I've had my fair share of things go wrong, bottomed out the car busted my oil pan, cracked my engine mount destroyed the timing belt, water pump, and pretty much everything on that side. I had to remove the entire engine in my driveway 5 days prior to WF. I had parts overnighted from all over the USA. DBC performance, NA motorsports, Forge motorosports, Phil @ BSH they all did there best on there part with a parts bill totalling over $2600 I footed the cash did the work in 3 days and had my car up and not only running but I was confident enough in my work to throw it on the track that same day i got the car back together and running and ran it all day at Water Fest! (Angel and Mike @Forge can attest to this one)

How can you think that I broke something i couldnt fix? I could have blown the entire motor and trans and done the work and what cost me maybe 5-6k total!? No instead i got out and buy a $40k car in cash. Yes read that again I showed up with a big bag of money no liens on my end and if you'd like I'll gladly rub my title uip against the scanner for you to see. I just can't see how you get off on making a personal attack on someone like myself and completely getting away with it with absolutely no proof on your end to back up anything.
Anyways I've waited 3 months to finally be able to stick up for myself and as always I'll be here for anyone of the golfmkv members :thumbsup:
 

ViRtUaLheretic

╭∩╮(︶__︶&#6
Location
KC MO
Car(s)
2009 VW GTI
Wooooooooooooooah Noside is back!
Hey quick before something goes amiss again how do you like the STI?
Got a link to a build thread for that sucker?
I really liked following your buildup and work on here and vortex.

/end thread jack
 

07Noside

Banned
Location
x
Wooooooooooooooah Noside is back!
Hey quick before something goes amiss again how do you like the STI?
Got a link to a build thread for that sucker?
I really liked following your buildup and work on here and vortex.

/end thread jack

STI is great only things I don't really like is gas mileage I'll see maybe 23-4 on the highway if I'm lucky! and absolutely no low end power. It's like I always have to down shift but the top end pull and launching it and just hooking 1st and 2nd going wide open is pretty damn fun!

I only had the car stock for the first 3k miles, then i added the cobb ots map at 4k i added an aem cai " the only cai thats MAf portion is completely identical in both size, mounting depth and uses an oem maf straightener" along with a 3.5" bell mouth catless divorced wastegate d/p and full 3" quad cbe to complete it. The sound is very nice!

I have to say even though the sti has no sound deadening material in the car I'm very surprised I have no rattles at all! The hvac system kicks the shit out of the GTI's but otherwise the interior isnt that bad I don't feel like I'm missing much besides like I said that low end tq kick in the pants.

As of June 10th Cobb finally released there access tuner race program which is the custom tuning software for the my2010 models so I've been working on a pretty killer map for the past week and can't wait finish it up and get it loaded onto the car. Another cool thing using the cobb handheld flasher " access port" it gives you launch control and flat foot shifting at no extra cost.

I'm pretty much done modding for now keeping it basic stg2 as the stock sti pistons are crap the entire motors internals are forged but they give you cast pistons which are pretty much good for nothing but a paper weight after 400 hp at the crank which is where I should be with the new map. Last dyno off the ots map I made 306 awhp. I do have a new short block being built for me atm as that is the first step I needed to make in order to start going big which I should have all my parts in and or odered by this winter and then to start building early spring 2011. I'll keep you guys updated as to that.

Cosmetically all I've done so far was weathertech rain guards and Rally Armor Mud flaps which are great keeps all the dirt and splatter off the sides of your car.

^photo courtesy of VRStewart

 

julito04

I plead the fif.
Location
STL
Car(s)
08 WRX Limited
Noside! He has returned!

More lowarz :biggrin:
 

ViRtUaLheretic

╭∩╮(︶__︶&#6
Location
KC MO
Car(s)
2009 VW GTI
Hot damn that looks good, def keep us posted with your results.
How hard is it to create your own custom map tune using that software?
I bet that exhaust sounds awesome, esp with the w/g divorced pipe.

If you make a build log somewhere make sure to send a link our way!
 

07Noside

Banned
Location
x
Hot damn that looks good, def keep us posted with your results.
How hard is it to create your own custom map tune using that software?
I bet that exhaust sounds awesome, esp with the w/g divorced pipe.

If you make a build log somewhere make sure to send a link our way!

Its fairly time consuming not to difficult IMO but you have to set all your compensation tables for everything for every rpm for every throttle position etc, I'm working on just making a good reliable smooth powerful map Its nice though as I can tune for every and any modification on my own, BT, different injectors, tgv deletes and getting rid of the rest of that emissions related crap lol. I have some experience doing tables with big stuff 3 for a track only car but like I said its a lot more time consuming because of the part throttle scenarios and different ambient conditions I have to configure being its my DD. Its fun and there's just so many different possibilities out there that I can do with the car I'm not just stuck with a gt30 or a ko4 ya know. Thats why I started with the engine block which will be good for 600 awhp and I had to get one anyways because of the car being my DD and I can't afford the downtime involved ripping the motor out and doing the fab work. I can do the swap easy on this car in a day. Its very simple just because of the setup its like I'm working on half of the v8 I usually work on and there's no dumb complicated clip type clamps or wacky triple square bolts. It'll be lots of fun after vacation season is over I'm headed out to VA Beach for 2 weeks in a week so I've been cutting back on the budget, but not having a car payment this time around just makes balancing the budget much easier as well!

Anyways I'm still waiting on Arins reply, I figure if you can post something to begin with you can be mature enough to follow up to the response...
 
Top